but in my case, the essence of it is correct. My support for Obama is based mainly on his grass roots approach, his rejection of lobbyists, and his embracing of the 50 state strategy over the DLC swing state strategy. Issues of gender or race do not come into it. I think Clinton would make a great President, I just like Obama better. Most Obama supporters I talk to feel the same. It is only a noisy few doing most of the trolling on the blogs (and some of those might be freepers).
I also take issue with the idea that suddenly Obama supporters that were rude in the past are suddenly reversing themselves and making nice in an insincere effort to create unity. I think if you look at the posting histories, most of the polite entreaties are coming from people who were never trolls... what you are seeing is simply a shift in awareness by the real Obama supporters who were previously to busy phone banking and canvasing to pay attention to the worst of the blog chatter.
It is unfair to judge all Obama supporters only on the behavior of the worst of us, just as it would be unfair of me to judge all Clinton supporters that way. It is just too easy to do that because often the most annoying supporters are also the ones most motivated to make themselves heard.
So please continue to support Clinton until the nomination process is over. Then, whatever the outcome, it is indeed my sincere hope that we can all remain unified in defeating McCain and the Neocons. The stakes are too high to let the immaturity and poor manners of a few supporters divide us. McCain does not magically because a good candidate just because some Obama supporters are jerks.
Peace
This is just some advice for people who want Obama to do well: if you want to insist it's not sexism, you have an argument to make and that is just fine.
But you hurt your cause when you deliver that message from a 25-year-old male.
Most women do not experience sexism or see its effects well into their thirties or forties.
Do you realize Obama is running attack ads in Oregon, while his supporters say Hillary is "permitted" to keep running as long as she doesn't attack him?
any male under 30 is essentially disqualified from discussing the race?
You wouldn't be being...discriminatory or anything, would you?
No but a male under 30 is not the ideal messenger to discuss sexism.
No, but a white person is not the ideal messanger to discuss racism.
I find both of those sentiments to be equally offensive. Actually, yours is even more offensive because it discriminates by age as well as gender.
Ideas are sensible in one's estimation or not. One finds them agreeable or not based on reasoning that takes place after hearing or reading them, at least that's how it should be. The messenger, to me, doesn't make them valid or invalidate them.
If this diary were an apology, I could see considering the source as sincerity is integral to the value of an apology. But, that is not what this is. It is a collection of ideas or arguments put forward that anyone can think about and embrace or reject in part or on the whole. To do otherwise is to invite incorrect analysis and it is also to presume that, regardless of the merits of the ideas themselves, an entire group of people is not capable of a valueable or viable intillectual concept. That's a pretty crummy thing to do to women. Likewise, it is crummy to do to anyone not old enough or female enough for your liking.
And your writing style - are you in academia?
I am not saying a 24-year-old male must be censored. I was a fan of thereisnospoon before this primary, I will be a fan of spoon after this primary. I believe he's a future champion of progressive causes. Spoon's knowledge political history and philosophy is on par with that of John Adams in his day (well, when John Adams was a young man at least.)
I know spoon, in his heart, wants equal opportunity for everyone regardless of gender, age, or race.
I also know that unconscious bias is something that I've caught in myself, against my own kind. It's something AAs hold against AAs. Women against women. Latinos against latinos.
I know a large part of Hillary-hate has nothing to do with sexism. But I have seen, to my own surprise, this primary season, that a large, very large part of Hillary-hate is caused by sexism. And what's shocked me is a lot of it comes from women "she voted for IWR because she's female and she was trying to look tough." I don't believe Hillary would do such a thing. I believe she voted for the war, as did her fellow New York Senator, for deterrence.
"If she wouldn't campaign like a man people wouldn't hate her so much" said a progressive, latina friend of mine who works in ethnic media.
could be misread.
Let me explain: I thought I was laying it on too thick, so I said the philosophical knowledge of spoon and hekebelos was an par with John Adams when he was their age.
This is not to belittle your young age. Adams was pretty effing smart before he was 25.
Oh, tell hell with it. Just TR me.
no TR necessary, the statement is logical. And my dislike of Hillary Clinton has everything to do with Democratic Party structures. I don't have nearly as much of a problem with Hillary Clinton, to be honest, as I have with the cast of characters she surrounds herself with--Carville, McCauliffe, and the like, who basically want to run the party like it's 1992.
I thought you and spoon were well-educated in philosophy, etc.
When you are a young fertile nubile female, the guys give you more leeway in hopes you will favor them with attention. Once you have passed that age, the sexism comes out and you are put down, passed over, and generally made to feel like you are not as valuable in society.
It shows some when you are younger, but mainly in aggressive unwanted attention.
I really see it now. It's a bizarre experience.
Does that make any difference? I can only speak for myself. I am a very issues driven voter. I know other Obama voters of varying ages and both genders and I don't think gender or race come into their decisions either. I'm not saying that sexism and racism has not been a factor in this campaign... just that we should not jump to the conclusion that it is the major factor or that those that choose a different candidate always do it from such motives.
We've have two great candidates. There are valid reasons for selecting either one. We don't need to resort to tearing each other down to explain why we are not all on the same page.
he's running attack ads in Oregon right now.
Are the ads sexist or racist? Do you have links to them so we can judge them for ourselves?
Thanks
They follow a pattern with him - he attacks her windfall profits tax on oil companies as one that would never pass (No, we can't.) Therefore, he says, it's a pander and typical of what's wrong with Washington and (and implied: what's wrong with those horrible Clintons who were worse than Bush.)
I really don't think ads that are centered around issues should count as attack ads.
Like all of his attacks have been. Hers have been on issues.
Dude, you just said he was going at her for her position on the gas tax holiday. How is that not an issue centered criticism?
And the emails from camp Obama have been worse: she is "desperate" "viscious" "will do anything to win" "dishonest".
Her emails: "our opponent is outspending us."
At the same time, he never said McCain had crossed some mark in the sand that Hillary did not. That, in my opinion, is pretty vicious.
But again I ask, is criticizing her position on the gas tax really a personal attack? That seems to be centered around and issue to me.
On a professional note, I appreciate the fact that you welcome informed arguments.
On a personal note: Fuck you buddy. I'm one of those males under 25, and if that makes my vote count less in your head that's fine. but just know that I arrived at my choice of candidate out of principal, I never expected to see a politician within my lifetime that refused lobbiest donations and when that happened, I jumped on the opportunity to support the candidate that championed something I had hoped to see.
Women experience sexism later in life, men face it earlier. My insurance rates are higher because I'm more likely to get pulled over and actually get a ticket all my female friends my age get a warning. Where is the sexism worse there? When I'm trying to get a job as a server, it goes to the good looking girl who brings in more tips. Who is the sexism working against there? And now you tell me that to support my opinions and defend myself against the accusations that I arrived at my decisions not out of sexism, but out of principal, that I have to be a female over 30!? Again, to summarize my feelings. Fuck you.
and you have very right to speak out for your candidate.
Feel insulted and discriminated against for being young? Sorry, but youth is one area where discrimination is warranted. Life is not fair.
You realize how much the elderly have been insulted this primary? Older women? Middle aged women? Life is not fair, get used to it.
Wait wait wait. First of all, let me repeat my fuck you. I thought we lived in a country where we were judged not by our race, gender, religion or age but by the merits of our ideas and actions and by the integrity of our character.
Second, I was addressing the fact that sexism against younger males is prevelant in the workforce, insurance and even within our legal system but you chose to gloss over that.
Third, a big FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU on behalf of my best friends, my cousins, my classmates, the kids who grew up with on my fucking street that are fighting in iraq and DYING! This is a FUCK YOU for your generation raping social security, raping the planet and leaving it to my generation to fix and all you say is it's warranted to be prejudice against people my age. You want to say it's warranted to be discrimative against people my age? Tell that to the "kids" who face roadside bombs everyday you hyporcite piece of self-important slime.
Honestly, do you know anyone who's actually fighting is this god foresaken war? Have you ever had to sit with a circle of crying friends wondering why your buddy had to die? Do you know what it's like watching one of your friends walk out the door after a goodbye party wondering if the next time you see them is going to be at a funeral.
People younger than me are expected to SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES in COMBAT ZONES. And yet it's justified to be prejudice against people my age? God you must love the smell of your own farts waaaaaaay too much. Not in all cases, but in your case it's true: the mind really does go first.
Hey, I totally agree with you and as a former Marine who got out in 2003, I totally understand where you're coming from. But you don't help the youth argument with the "fuck you's." It makes you seem passionate, but immature. I grant you that immaturity does not necessarily correlate to youth (look at Bush), but it often does and people on this blog will use that as a strawman to undermine the validity of your points.
Your vote counts no more or less than mine. Yes the war is sickening and I know Hillary will be better at getting us out.
